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Navin Kumar's avatar

Happy to see you writing more long-form! Also also, agree with you on many things and disagree on many things but I'll stick to one: the "durable" policies that you're talking about are insurance, not redistribution.

You only get anything out of social security if you paid into it, and what you get (in SS benefits) is increasing in what you put in. The rich get a smaller fraction back, but they also live longer which offsets this somewhat.

Similarly, unemployment insurance is even more proportional e.g. Danish unemployment benefits are 90% of your income, which means richer people get more. It's mildly redistributive because it's funded by a somewhat progressive tax system & richer people are also less likely to be unemployed, but it's not tax-and-transfer.

Both of these are best thought of as insurance (SS against poverty in old age) which private markets cannot provide due to selection effects e.g. people who are unlikely to be fired will opt out of unemployment insurance, raising the price, causjng more people to opt out until UI is no longer viable. Medicare is literally insurance.

So yes, social insurance is durable, but things like SNAP or Medicare or the EITC are a lot more precarious, as we saw last winter when SNAP benefits were suspended during budget negotiations.

I don't think this undermines this essays claims, but "social insurance is not public aid" is a pet bugbear of mine.

Marshall Menssen's avatar

Hi Cassie, thanks for the excellent and insightful piece! I'm sorry my comment is so rambling; your piece sparked a lot of questions that I'm still trying to sort through and I ended up writing a lot more than I intended to.

I think your reasoning and evidence are sound and I agree with much of your argument. In particular, I agree that because of the diminishing marginal return to wealth, redistribution to poor peole is more important than growth for increasing happiness at least in the short- to medium-term (perhaps poorly-designed taxes would sufficiently harm the sort of growth that lifts all boats that it would end up backfiring, but this timescale is probably on the order of decades? And EA/USAID style transfers to the world's poorest people rather than just within one's own country is vastly more effective for increasing global human happiness than continuing growth in a wealthy country of course, but it might be a tough sell getting voters to be ok with scaling this up?) I definitely think happiness being proportional to log wealth is both very plausibly true and is a compelling reason to increase redistribution policies.

However, I think the real value of liberalism is not that it's really good at promoting economic growth, but because it leaves people free to pursue their own vision for "the good life", and focusing on promoting economic growth is conducive to this. For example, illiberal states run competently (such as Singapore, or arguably China etc?) can grow their economies similarly well to liberal states. However, illiberal states impose their vision of "the good life" on their citizens, which can benefit some people but will likely harm others. For example, I imagine that you would be much happier in a relatively liberal country whose government follows a "live and let live" philosophy than living under a theocratic state which considers being transgender to be harmful to human flourishing and therefore prioritizes paternalistically banning living a transgender lifestyle in order to "help" their citizens live happier lives. (Of course, the US both historically and currently does a poor job of protecting transgender people, but I'm sure the US still does better on this score than most/all dictatorships today?) Thus in my opinion, the value of liberal states focusing on economic growth comes from two things: 1. no matter what lifestyle or values you want to pursue, it's easier to do so if you have more wealth, and 2. a state focused on enabling economic growth limits itself to avoid paternalistically and morally intervening in personal affairs.

I realize now that this sounds a lot like arguing for a very laissez-faire libertarianism, which I don't intend. I definitely think that liberal states should intervene in plenty of areas besides for economic growth to promote flourishing, ideally areas that minimally impose worldviews or ideologies on its citizens? (e.g. promoting public health for citizens such as through providing vaccines to everyone is pretty obviously good, though this wouldn't harm the economy at all, and I guess Jehovah's Witnesses or Christian Scientists or whatever would disagree. Or perhaps preserving a clean nature environment by reducing pollution to enjoy is a better example, since it's less ideologically controversial but would require a higher economic sacrifice than vaccines?) Or maybe a better argument would be that the benefit of liberalism is from the strength and quality of its institutions (AJR style) or of having democracy or something, which provide the rule of law and freedoms and so on which facilitate both higher/more consistent economic growth and living a fulfilling life outside of increased wealth? Perhaps I'm making a mistake and misreading your work by conflating (neo)liberalism as economic policy with liberalism as a philosophy/ideology of government in general?

I think someone in the Argument (maybe Jeremiah Johnson, Kelsey Piper, or Noah Smith?) wrote a piece that explains my view on this aspect of liberalism better than I did. I guess I'd conclude by saying that I definitely agree with you that some sort of fusion of Abundance/YIMBY + democratic socialism directing the economic growth of capitalism towards pro-social ends (such as building more housing!) is better for increasing happiness than just hoping laissez-faire capitalism trickles down to everyone and that just increasing wealth is the best way to improve social conditions, but that I'm wary of looking for government to provide meaning and values in life beyond facilitating economic growth (and of course providing useful public goods). I'm also very wary of unleashing populist policy as a way to help people "feel in control of their lives" as I strongly feel that many aspects of government are better off in the hands of experts than being controlled by popular vote of an uninformed electorate (for example, I strongly prefer having Fauci run the CDC over RFK and having Powell run the Federal Reserve over Trump, and if health and macroeconomic policy were more "responsive" to voters, it would look more like what Trump and RFK are doing than under more trustworthy and competent leadership). But I still strongly agree that government should be democratic and responsive; perhaps there are certain aspects of government that should be controlled by qualified elites/institutions but most areas should be more democratic, but that's another long comment and I'm not sure how to reconcile my love of democracy with my fear of populism.

Anyways, thanks for the excellent article, and I hope Scott Alexander gives you a thoughtful reply!

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